Sustainable Parenting

91. 3 Key Tools from Dr. John Sommers-Flanagan

• Flora McCormick, LCPC, Parenting Coach

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Ever find yourself feeling stuck when your child’s behavior feels challenging?

In this episode, Dr. John Sommers-Flanagan, a clinical psychologist and professor for counseling at the University of Montana, shares three gentle tools to bring more calm and connection into parenting moments. Together, we explore how self-awareness, curiosity, and radical acceptance can help create stronger bonds and smoother interactions with your child.

After listening, you'll discover:
• How the phrase, "Get Curious, Not Furious" can shift tricky moments
• How self-awareness supports more thoughtful parenting choices
• Talks about practicing calm and caring responses
• The idea of radical acceptance during tough parenting days
• Ways to set boundaries with kindness and understanding
• How to encourage, noticing and celebrating positive moments
• How to focus on building trust and connection in everyday interactions

Join us for a conversation filled with insights and practical tools to support your parenting journey.

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Speaker 1:

It's about knowing and understanding and really the effort to know and understand what's happening inside of our kiddos, rather than reacting with some negative emotions, which I just want to say from the start, it's really easy to do, right? I mean, our kids are so good at pushing our buttons.

Speaker 2:

Yep, do right. I mean, our kids are so good at pushing our buttons. Yep, you're listening to the Sustainable Parenting Podcast and today I'm so honored to have a guest Dr Summers Flanagan, from the University of Montana, clinical psychologist and author or co-author of over 100 publications, including nine books and many training videos. His books, co-written with his wife, rita, include how to Listen so Parents Will Talk, and Talk, so Parents Will Listen. Clinical Interviewing and Tough Kids Cool Counseling.

Speaker 2:

Hello and welcome to the Sustainable Parenting Podcast. Let me tell you, friend, this place is different. We fill that gap between gentle parenting and harsh discipline that's really missing to parent with kindness and firmness at the same time and give you the exact steps to be able to parent in ways that are more realistic and effective and, for that reason, finally feel sustainable. Welcome, welcome. Met Dr Summers Flanagan 15 years ago, as we had some overlapping work in the family's first parenting classes in Missoula when I lived over there, so I'm so honored to have you here. You're one of my top mentors and I so appreciate any time I can learn from you and appreciate getting to share your wisdom with my listeners.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, Flora. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I'm honored.

Speaker 2:

Well, let's get right in here so our parents get this value right away. We are we. We discussed talking about three top strategies from a parenting expert. So you know, I know you. One of my favorite things is you've got these catchphrases that stay in my mind and stay with the parents that I've helped. So I use and repeat many of your catchphrases. So I thought maybe we'd share today your catchphrases about getting curious, not furious, radical acceptance in parenting and what gets noticed gets repeated.

Speaker 1:

Get curious, not furious, is something I learned from a woman named Linda Braun, who was the former executive director and founder or co-founder of Families First Boston, and Linda was just an incredibly wise person when it came to parenting. Furious, Not Furious, for me really speaks to. It's about knowing and understanding and really the effort to know and understand what's happening inside of our kiddos rather than reacting with some negative emotions, which I just want to say from the start. It's really easy to do, right. I mean, our kids are so good at pushing our buttons.

Speaker 2:

Yep, yeah, I mean that if you talk about knee jerk reaction, is it to get curious? Absolutely not. I especially just got off the phone talking with a parent about this. You know, when they're defiant and they snap some comment back at you, you know, is my inclination to get curious. No, I want to just be like. Don't you speak to me that way, don't you act that way and get in teacher lecture correction mode. So how, how do parents do this? What do you? What? What helps you to go curious instead of furious? Go curious instead of furious.

Speaker 1:

Well, the first thing I think that's really helpful is to recognize, like you said, our first knee-jerk reaction may not be constructive, and that's okay. It's okay for us to, you know, we sort of need to be accepting and curious about ourselves as well. And so to recognize and to develop self-awareness, to know what kinds of things that our children do that really push our buttons or get us to do that negative emotional response, say to ourselves, how can I be the best version of myself when my child is pushing my emotional and reactive buttons? And so I think that's a very individual thing for parents, right, for you, your best possible parental response might be different than mine. But I think what's really important is for us to recognize that we all have sort of in the back of our minds, I think, and some energy toward being the best parent that we can be, and we have visions, I think, of what that looks like.

Speaker 1:

We just don't usually predict and envision transforming the negative yelling parent into something more thoughtful. So, first part, self-awareness. Second part would be practice, and this is the sort of we can talk about neuroscience if we want, because I know that's popular, but that which we do, whatever we do, is what we're training our brain to do, and so it will be really hard to do the unnatural thing and to turn toward being curious instead of furious. It will be unnatural, and so we need to really practice that. We need to rehearse it in our minds, sometimes in our bodies, and actually say the kinds of thoughtful words that we would like to say even without the kids there. So to really rehearse it like you're performing or going to perform in a play.

Speaker 2:

Yes, oh, I love that. Yeah, rehearse it in your mind, talk it over, think about what happened and what you might want to do differently next time. I think of the pause too. I think it's just like we get so immediate, and one of the most powerful steps for me in that different approach than the knee-jerk reaction is just pause. Let me take a sec, yeah yeah, that is.

Speaker 1:

So. That's such great advice, because taking a sec gives you a chance to access, maybe, the more thoughtful way of being, and so that's a that's a great tip and I, like I I think of the story you've told before about the whisper that came across as a growl, which feels connected to this too right.

Speaker 2:

It's like be willing to know that you're going to get there with some stumbling moments that aren't ideally it right off the bat.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, thanks for remembering that story.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you want to tell that story.

Speaker 1:

It's not one of my best moments, right, but it sort of illustrates that, ah, this is a process. I wanted to whisper instead of yell. I knew that, but the next time I got triggered it didn't come out quite right, but it was a little different and I managed to move myself toward the whisper.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, love that. Okay, how about radical acceptance? Tell us about that.

Speaker 1:

Well, radical acceptance is something that there's so many different ways to think about it. Right, it comes from Buddhist philosophy. It comes from Carl Rogers, a famous counseling and psychotherapist theorist. It comes from Marsha Linehan and her work with dialectical behavior therapy. So it's got all these different roots, both historic and contemporary, and really it's about trying to be nonjudgmental and it really helps to try to do that with yourself and be accepting of yourself as a project, as a parent who wants to be better, and it's also really important to be recognizing hmm, how can I be nonjudgmentally accepting of who my child is?

Speaker 1:

And some examples of that for me and some of the big examples are some of the parents who have kids with some really significant disabilities and this sort of immense mental shift it takes, because I think for most parents, most of the time there's lots of expectation and judgment about the way your children will turn out and that they'll be better than us.

Speaker 1:

And when a child with a severe disability comes along, it really sort of transforms, I think, and becomes such a challenge for the parent to let go of those expectations around how the child will develop and how the child will learn. The other thing related to this is the whole word expectations, because oftentimes expectations is one of those. It's very triggering. If I think my child should be ready on time, or I think my child should get an A in math, or if I think my child should always be respectful of me, when that doesn't work out, it will be super activating and so it's in some ways that acceptance of what is, and that doesn't mean that we're going to tell our child it's okay to be disrespectful or it's okay to flunk math or it's okay to you know whatever Not listen, not listen.

Speaker 1:

We still need to have those standards, but I think in some ways this is very related to get curious, not furious. It's another way of us staying away from our immediate reactive responses that often are based on our own expectations.

Speaker 2:

And I love you pointing that out, because I think, like there's this immediate chain from what we expect of our kids and what we expect of ourselves to judgments, right, like they're going to do what I say equals I'm a good mom, I've got control of everything. Equals, you know, I'm proud of myself as a parent, you know, which then equally leads to any time that they are just being kids, testing rules and boundaries. Then we equally, oh I'm that means they're a bad kid quote, unquote in some way, you know, or they're a tough kid. And and instead of saying what if I woke up with the expectation, like I think, of your new attitude thing that you talked about once, like what if I could enter the each day not with like, oh, please have there be no tantrums, no upsets, no moments that he doesn't do exactly what I say, right when I say it. You know, I hope today's going to be that day. Well, of course, you're going to be disappointed throughout the day, especially the younger your child is.

Speaker 2:

But this new attitude that I know you talked about once, child is, but this new attitude that I know you talked about once, and many parents are like I love that idea and it's so hard to do, which is true, same for me too but it does bring more ease and peace. If you can enter the day with sort of lowered expectations, like you know what, the likelihood my kid may disagree with me at some point in the day is pretty high. So why don't I make a plan for it instead of just like hoping and praying it's not going to happen? That lowered expectation puts me in such a different mindset when it's happening and I'm like, okay, here we go.

Speaker 1:

Let's go into my tools. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you said that so well, and it does involve really changing our attitude or our expectations. And when I when I think of that, I also think and this is maybe a little more controversial now. I think contemporary parenting has become just my impression a little bit that there are some parents who have trouble saying no to their children.

Speaker 2:

I couldn't agree with that for sure have trouble saying no to their children.

Speaker 1:

I couldn't agree with that, for sure. Yeah, and I think it's okay to wake up in the morning or to go to bed at night and think how will I say no to my children? Because sometimes we need to say no. But how will I say no? And this is another little tagline say no with empathy, Say no with compassion. Kids need limits. They're going to be making choices that are not the best and sometimes we let them make a not great choice and experience the consequences. But it's perfectly okay to say no sometimes with compassion and empathy.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I mean, it brings me back to the positive discipline, jane Nelson's simple model that I love you and the answer is no, I mean that's such a simple and yet incredibly profound way to hold both at the same time. Not I love you, but the answer is no. But the both can be true together.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's beautiful. That's beautiful, I love you. And we're not having ice cream for dinner, exactly, yes, yes, I love you and it's time to stop playing video games.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, or I love you and I'm not going to allow you to keep screaming in my face. I'm going to choose to walk away. Yes.

Speaker 1:

Beautiful.

Speaker 2:

So let's go to number three. What gets noticed gets repeated, or if there's something else you wanted to say, is number three.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, really another way of saying that is what we pay attention to grows. And so if we're paying attention to and really forgetting to pay attention to the positive behaviors and we're paying attention to whenever our child is engaging in undesirable behaviors easy to do that, in fact. I would be willing to bet that that's sort of a brain development, evolutionary thing that we're geared to notice those things that are undesirable, and I don't know why, but we do, and a lot of times we notice when our kids are imperfect, right, especially if they're imperfect in ways that we were imperfect. So if I see my child being disorganized and I know that disorganization has been a struggle for me I really want my child, I'm get over-invested in that, and so then I'll be paying so much attention to it that I'll be conveying the message to my child you're a disorganized girl, or I'll be paying attention to it so much that that's when she gets most of the attention from me, and, of course, attention's like gold, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's probably reinforcer of behavior. Yeah, and that gosh, I think. And tell me if this fits for you too. But maybe it's also when those child behaviors are either super similar or the super opposite that you cannot really do, like my husband is, so everything's in its place and a place for everything, and then when you know his wife or the kids are less able to do that, it's like very triggering and more upsetting. And for me it's like, you know, being able to be connecting and more outgoing. And I have a child that's slow to warm up and it just pushes my buttons when he would have those meltdowns and cling to my leg and like that was so opposite, you know. So I think I experienced a little bit of, uh, both of those same or different temperament things that push your buttons. Um, but I, I, I think of I think I learned this from you too is the having the what did you call it?

Speaker 2:

Like the reverse reaction, like get enthusiastic with your praise and boring with your consequences is such a phrase I love of yours about how to what gets noticed gets repeated. So if you're, you know, super reactive, like, oh, my gosh, how could you have done that to your sister Are you kidding me, versus? Then they're doing great. We're like oh hey, thanks for doing good with your sister Versus the opposite, right, that's what? Again back to knee. Jerk reaction, of course, like not meaning to criticize anyone that does that, because it's certainly my first reaction to just oh, thank goodness, it's going well, I can surf facebook or do something on my phone, versus catching the positive so that you can get more out of what gets noticed, gets repeated yeah, yeah, and that's that.

Speaker 1:

That is so, so hard. Yeah, I think about. I think that one of my discoveries and you've heard this story, I'm sure, a few times, but is having teenagers who were super defiant in my office. I'm doing counseling or psychotherapy with them and they would tell me things like I love it, I love it when I just get my dad so mad that he's got this vein in his forehead and it starts to twitch and I just love it. Or the girl who says I love it when my mom, she starts to spit, when she's really angry and it's like well, how did that become something that those kiddos really liked? And it was that negative cycle of parents overreacting and when, as they overreacted, it also gave the kids a sense of power, right, Wow?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like I may not have any power to get a say in what time my bedtime is or what I eat for dinner and all these other things kids have no power over, but ooh, I can make him get so mad and that feels pretty powerful, like you're saying.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, which is why we need to try to flip that switch and do exciting praise and boring punishment, because the impulse is to do the opposite, right To do very big punishment and very small praise. And if they're getting big punishment, that becomes the big control and reward experience for them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I'm starting to feel like such a groupie, because I'm like, and also you've said, and also you've said, because I'm thinking of all the things I've learned from you. But that's also making me think of how you've said that I notice, like you know I know people do read in literature we shouldn't make it all about us. We're not saying that this big reaction of positivity needs to be. You're making me so happy, you're making me so proud, but it's just trying to, you know, have a big reaction of reflecting to the child, right? I noticed that you so enjoyed how that worked out for you and just pointing that out, right? Or is there any other comment you want to make on that?

Speaker 1:

You remember some of the things I've said better than I do, but really that's about being a mirror, right, and I think, being really trying to be a positive mirror. And so when we see positive affect, positive emotion in our children, to let them know, it becomes a little bit about us because we are noticing it, but it's mostly we're just being a mirror and saying, yeah, it looks like you had so much fun with that today. It looks like you enjoyed doing the puzzle, you enjoyed playing the game with your cousin, you enjoyed whatever it was, just to notice it. And of course, we want to have neutral to positive affect when we notice those things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, not just what we say, but how we say it.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Love that. Well, goodness, thank you for these three gems. And I mean you have I mean, I don't even know 35, 45 years of experience in this field, you know. So anything else you'd like to end on, that are your thoughts, parting thoughts for parents that are working to do their best of kindness and firmness at the same time.

Speaker 1:

I'm reminded, sort of at the foundation, that and I think you'll probably agree with this that it's about relationship. Years ago, when I was the director of Families First in Missoula, I remember thinking of that old saying I can't remember which politician made it popular, but it's the economy, dummy, it's all about the economy. And you know, when it comes to parenting, I'd say it's the relationship, it's the relationship. Let's not be a dummy and forget that. And so how do we connect? Well, we want to be curious, not furious. How do we help our child grow their own positive qualities? Well, pay attention to those positive qualities, because that will help them grow. And so I think that, as we're talking about these taglines, we also need to realize it's the relationship and it's about maintaining and growing a positive relationship.

Speaker 2:

Amen, yes, preach, love it. I can't agree more. Yeah, and especially when we have challenges that can be so counterintuitive to focus on, but it is. It's the focus of everything. So well. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time and all these gems. For more info, you can follow his blog at johnsommersflanagancom and learn about John's latest venture, the Montana Happiness Project, at montanahappinessprojectcom. Also, I know sometimes you offer workshops that you announce in there. So, yes, if you'd like to follow up with Dr Summers Flanagan, I really encourage you to do it.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, Flora.