Sustainable Parenting
Are you tired of power struggles, whining, and tantrums with your kids? Does it seem no matter what you do, they just. won't. LISTEN?!
Friend, you are not alone. I have been there. And I can't wait to share with you the pathway to more joy and ease, getting kids to listen in a way that is still loving, kind and connected.
Welcome to Sustainable Parenting.
Here we bridge the gap between overly gentle parenting and overly harsh discipline, so you can parent with kindness and firmness at the same time.
In this podcast, we share simple transformational shifts, so you can finally be the calm, confident parent you always dreamed you'd be.
With my master’s degree in counseling, being a mom of 2 young kids, and 12 years of experience coaching and mentoring parents internationally, I have found the secrets to being a calm confident parent.
These 15 min. episodes will drop each Wednesday and boil down parenting theory and psychology into bite-size strategies that are easy to understand and implement, and for that reason...finally feel sustainable.
Sustainable Parenting
58. How to Be Kind & Firm (part 2) with Jane Nelsen: Empowering Families
Are you ready to rethink consequences, punishment and time outs?
This week we explore the transformational power of positive discipline with our guest, author and parenting expert - Jane Nelsen.
By the time you finish listening, you'll know:
🌟 Why it's important to drop punishments and even some consequences
🌟 How to use "Positive Time Outs"
🌟 The 4 key Mistaken Goals listed in THIS CHART, and how to use them to outsmart misbehavior.
🌟 What to do when children back-talk
In this discussion we unravel the concepts of kindness and firmness in discipline, moving away from punitive measures and towards enduring solutions that boost children's self-worth and autonomy.
Discover how to handle common disciplinary scenarios with grace, all while fostering good character and respectful communication within the family unit.
RESOURCES mentioned in today's episode:
🌟 Jared's Cool-Off Book, by Jane Nelsen
🌟Flora's handout on how to SUPPORT, rather than fix/rescue
🌟The 4 key Mistaken Goals listed in THIS CHART, and how to use them to outsmart misbehavior.
✨Want more?
1) Use this link for a FREE 20 min clarity call with Sustainable Parenting.
2) Download the FREE pdf. on getting kids to listen
Oh, there's focus, Okay. So one of the things I found when I kept experiencing that parents and teachers were using logical consequences to disguise punishment. They didn't like the word punishment and the research was coming out against punishment. So they started saying, well, the logical consequence, punishment. So they started saying, well, the logical consequence, um, but. And so I came up at first with the three r's of logical consequences. They need to be related to me. My memory is going.
Speaker 1:You're going to have to help me here yeah, really respectful and reasonable reasonable respectful, and if any of those were missing, it was really not even a logical consequence. But I finally said forget logical consequence, just focus on solutions. And I actually want to tell a real quick story about how I had that insight. I was in a I think it was a fourth or fifth grade school class that the kids were doing class meetings and a kid had been late from coming in for recess and so the kids were coming up with what should be the logical consequence for him being late. And they were coming up with things like write sentences, miss the next class, stay after school. They were all punishment and I just said wait, wait, wait, time out. What if you focus on things that would help solve the problem rather than punish? And they got it right away. They said, oh well, he could play closer to the bell, he could get a bell buddy, they could ask the janitor to increase the. I mean, they were just great solutions and then the child could choose the one that would be the most helpful. So that's when I started no more logical consequences, just focus on solutions. And kids are so good at it From the time they're four, from the time they're four years old, and this is when kids come into such a sense of the brain development and power that this is so almost essential to. One way for focusing on solutions is having family meetings, which we'll talk about at the very end. But let's go on, because I can see that we're going. This is going faster than I thought, yeah, but so here's just the no-no's no punishment, no permissiveness, no rewards. Now, now, wait a minute, let's stop there. For rewards Sometimes people think what Kids love, rewards?
Speaker 1:Yes, they do, and that's the problem. Sometimes they will start doing it instead of for a sense of contribution, for a sense of what am I going to get, and they might say, oh, I want a dollar to make my bed. And then, when they get a little older, I want $2. And then they get a teenager and say I don't care if my bed's made, I'm not making it, I don't want to make it. So no rewards. And also that robs them of that sense of contribution. No praise Now there is a difference between praise and encouragement.
Speaker 1:Like, instead of a kid gets a good grade and you say I'm so, instead of I'm proud of you, just say wow, you worked really hard on that, so it's acknowledging them rather than it be about you and the effort, not the. Yeah, I have a real quick story that I have to tell. This woman wrote to me from Australia and said that her daughter came home. Her teenager came home with a A and she said wow, you really worked hard on that. She said, mom, can't you just tell me you're proud of me like a normal parent? And I said I wrote her and I said, oh, I hope you will, because every child wants to hear that their parent is proud of them. What you just want to watch for is are they depending on it? You need to give them enough validation of what they've done and what they've contributed so that they don't start thinking it's all about getting your approval but they really learn to appreciate what they're contributing.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's see if we can go through the next one no reward, no praise, no pampering, no rescuing or fixing. Yes, go ahead, roflora.
Speaker 2:Oh, I could. I've made a whole handout on this just to emphasize this idea to clients the how can we support a child without fixing or rescuing? And it really is possible that you can say the support of validating things and lead them to problem solving without all your advice and all your you know. Yes, let's go to Jesse's parents and tell her she has to invite you to the birthday party or things like that.
Speaker 1:So where do your listeners get a hold of that?
Speaker 2:I'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Thank you All right, so let's go in the show notes. Yeah, All right, so let's go to the next one. No, taking away privileges is punishment and no punitive timeout. You know we're going to talk about positive timeout in a minute, but let's go to the next one Now. So to be kind and firm at the same time. We're finally getting through it, Laura. We're almost done and we're getting to finally to kindness and firmness.
Speaker 1:Kindness shows respect for the child and firmness shows respect for the needs of the situation and puts them together. Yes Next. Now I love this cartoon of the mom saying no and the little kid says yes, and she says no and he says yes, and then she picks him up and gives him a hug and his face is like surprised.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then she says no and he says OK, yes. And then he says a huggy no isn't fair. And I have to tell you a huggy no may not be fair, but it could be so effective sometimes just to say I need a hug and if they say no, you say, well, come find me when you're ready. I'll because I'm ready when you are yes.
Speaker 1:So now, when we go to the five criteria for positive discipline, and this is just so important that every single tool we teach is number one respectful. It's both kind and firm at the same time. That's the first. Number two it helps children feel belonging and significance, their primary goal. It's effective long term. It teaches we want to ask, does it teach valuable social and life skills for good character? And number five does it invite children to discover how capable they are and to use their power constructively? Now it's really important to understand that every tool we use has to meet all of those criteria. Yes, and you know this whole thing of punitive timeout. It's called grounding jail.
Speaker 1:I was so sad to see on one of those TV shows on parenting that they were putting this little two-year-old on a naughty chair. Well, I have to say that the woman who I can't remember which one it was, but she did not understand child development. Because two is the age when children are developing autonomy versus doubt and shame. Yeah, and what is that child learning? Sitting in there at the corner feeling doubt and shame? Yeah, at the very time he should be learning autonomy.
Speaker 1:So, but we do advocate positive timeout and that is that the child develops it. Or you can create it with them, or they can create they'll. They name it and you never send them to it. You might ask would it help you to go to your? And they might be so upset. They say no and you say would you like me to go with you, because this is not a punishment? No, well, I think I'll go to my timeout. So you just model. It's interesting how often they will run after you and say, oh, wait, wait, wait, I'm coming.
Speaker 1:So next the thing about to get over, the people wondered why I kept calling it positive timeout. It's because I still want to overcome the reputation of the negative timeout and so for this one, let kids decide what to call it to increase their ownership. They might call it the feel good place, or cool off spot, or space yes, sparkles. You know when, when child wanted to call it sparkles, and I'm sure that you, flora, have seen our book that we've written on this, called jared's cool out space yes, yeah put a link in there where people can get that too, because it's just delightful.
Speaker 1:So here's what I was just saying. You know, would it help you to go? Would you like me to go with you? So let's go to the next one. So backtalk. You know, I suggest to parents that they don't backtalk back. So if you go to the next slide, there's some examples of what you can say. So let's just you and I just go ahead and read this. You be the typical parent this time. I want to be the PD parent this time.
Speaker 2:Don't talk to me that way, young lady.
Speaker 1:I wonder what I did to upset you so much.
Speaker 2:Go to your room and don't come out until you can be respectful.
Speaker 1:Wow, you are really angry.
Speaker 2:You are grounded for a week. Wow, you are really angry.
Speaker 1:You are grounded for a week. I need to take some time out until I can be with you respectfully.
Speaker 2:How can you talk to me that way?
Speaker 1:after all that I've done for you, I need a hug. Please come find me when you're ready for one. You just lost all your privileges. What would help us? Right now, some time out or putting this on the family meeting agenda.
Speaker 2:Maybe military school will teach you to be more respectful of authority.
Speaker 1:I can hear you're really upset. Do you feel like telling me more?
Speaker 2:How far do you think that smart mouth will take? You think that smart?
Speaker 1:mouth will take you. You will be respectful, even if.
Speaker 2:I have to ground you for a year. Do you know that I really love you? Oh my gosh, these are so. Yeah, it's so. It's something I see a lot in the typical parent, which I see a lot in the parents I coach. It's we think somehow that if we dig in real big, like you're losing stuff for a year, I'm taking everything away, I'm sending you to military school, that somehow that's going to get through to them, like, somehow they'll be scared enough. And your side, the positive discipline side, is relationship-based, it's emotion-based. It's emotion-based, it's knowing there's a need there that's not being met and of course.
Speaker 1:That's why it's more yeah. It's also based on helping kids learn the skills we want that they need to be contributing members of society. Right back to being about solutions instead of just punishments. Right, so did we do all of the powerpoint we.
Speaker 2:Let's see where we ended. We've got one more oops.
Speaker 1:Sorry, we had this one really highlighted yeah, there's a whole bunch of these that maybe you could send them. That the kind and from at the same time is one is validate feelings. I I know you don't want to stop playing and it is time for whatever show. Understanding, I know you would rather watch tv than your homework and homework needs to be done first, or redirection you don't want to brush your teeth and we'll do it together. I see, can you see how these are all kind and firm? Yes, I know you want to mow the lawn. And what was our agreement? Yes, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just the essence of that. I love you and the answer is no, being applied over and, over and over again. I'm connecting to what's bothering you and I'm holding the boundary over here.
Speaker 1:Right, so let's just, is that the last one?
Speaker 2:Let's see Maria Montessori.
Speaker 1:Oh, I just saw this quote yesterday for the first time, where it says the undisciplined child enters into discipline by working in the company of others, not by being told he is naughty. Discipline is therefore primarily a learning experience and less a punitive experience, if appropriately dealt with. So we can just get rid of this whole now because I want to talk more. Oh, oh, we do have to talk about this. Mistakes and opportunities to learn.
Speaker 2:Yes, you said we were going to come back to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, first of all, we just need to say this to kids over and over my daughter, mary, said she was so surprised when she went to college you know, she was my youngest child, the one that lived with positive discipline from the time she was born and she just said that she was so surprised that her roommates thought of mistakes as something that they should be ashamed of or bad. She said, no, they're just better solutions. And to me, I really believe that the one thing we can do that would save time, a lot of time for parents who are busy, to have regular family meetings for 20 minutes a week, once a week, where you get to. Whenever there's a problem, put it on the agenda and focus on solutions, teaching kids to brainstorm. They can brainstorm what are their ideas to solve and they're so good at it yeah, and we got to give them more credit than we we do sometimes exactly.
Speaker 1:And uh, the thing is too is, as you're listeners probably know, we have a whole deck of tool cards and that are all meet all the criteria and that are all kind and firm, which?
Speaker 1:is the first criteria, so this, uh, and the more tools that the parents have, that instead of punishment. You know when they say, are you just going to let kids get away with it? No, uh, you're going to do things that help them learn from it and to learn the cooperation. But you know, like again when I was teaching child development, I just really know that, four years old, when something kicks in and those kids are so good at solutions, and then you have the three criteria that if they come up with solutions that are not related or respectful and reasonable, those get crossed off. And then the person who's? You know, even in class meetings when I was doing them, at first the kids would come up with a solution and they would maybe vote on it. But then we started letting the child who's having the problem choose the solution that they think will be most helpful. And that just also made kids feel like if my name is on the agenda, I'm not in trouble, I'm just going to get all these solutions and I get to choose the one. It's just very empowering. It really helps kids feel that sense of belonging and significance. You know, it's just one of the best ways.
Speaker 1:I think that if every family and every school was having class meetings, we'd have peace in the world and what we do, I know, before our time is completely up, we've got to talk about mistakes, because learning that mistakes are opportunity to learn is so healthy. And I still make them. And then you learn to apologize. It's okay to say you're sorry, and kids are usually so forgiving They'll say that's okay, mom. But this idea of so sometimes I need to say I'm too upset right now, I need to take some time out until I feel better and, if I've made a mistake, to go apologize so I'm so sorry. So it's not about being perfect. I mean, I never did get it. I never got there, never got perfection no, I haven't either, and even with adult children. But still just love knowing that, okay, I can apologize, I can say I'm sorry, and then we can focus on a solution that works for everybody.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and would you mind if I asked just a couple questions to follow up on all the wonderful things that you've shared? Do you have a few more minutes or do you need to be?
Speaker 1:done right here, we can take it. I can take as long as you want.
Speaker 2:Okay, I've got time to. Then, if you don't mind, and I can tell I'll probably split this into two episodes because there's so much wonderful content. Um, I have a few questions from um parents and I had some. If it's okay if I ask you a few, oh sure.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So one thought I'm having is that a lot of parents will tell me it's hard in this busy life with the stressors of fast pace. I've got to go, go, go. I know you said it takes time. They may also feel stressed from finances and there are just so many things on their mind that they're trying to do that it can be hard inside to find the resource to be your kind and firm self. What have you found for yourself or with parents you've worked with? Helps to try to grow internally the capacity to be kind and firm.
Speaker 1:You know this is a tough one, because I've just noticed everybody's noticing that there's just more anxiety, more depression. We don't know whether it's the times. I blame our government, congress. Sometimes it's like our kids watching how they can't even solve a problem together, whatever it is. It's true that this is why we need these kind of tools. I think it's more that we don't have the kind of tools. Oh, let me just sorry, let me just decline that my son took my anyway.
Speaker 1:I think this is all the more reason for, uh, having these tools and I think that sometimes just have the deck of tool cards, yes, and when there's a problem, say, wait, why don't we just pull a card and see if there's something on here? How much time does that take? And it's almost always inspiring. But also to let your kids, to let them know I'm frazzled right now. I need to go take some time out, yeah, and and take care of yourself. You do need to take care of yourself and teaching. If your kids aren't making all these demands or if you're not having these power struggles with your kids. That certainly relieves a lot of stress to do that and the thing is so much of it like taking 20 minutes a week to do a family meeting. Do you know, one of the reasons that's hopeful is not only the 20 minutes, but during the week we're having a problem. The kids are maybe fighting and I'll say would one of you be willing to put that on the family meeting agenda?
Speaker 1:That just is the interrupt that says, oh, all right. Or you say I'm going to put this on the agendas because I'm too upset to talk about it right now. But I just really believe it just creates so much more peace in the home and so much less stress, and that's all the more reason why we need these tools.
Speaker 2:I completely agree, thank you.
Speaker 1:And I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but it's going to make it. I don't know what else works better.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Right and I agree I think some people think it's a chicken and an egg kind of thing. Um, like you're asking versus telling exercise, parents will say, I think I just need to be more patient with my child, like they think it's an internal character flaw and and then I'll do this exercise with them and they say, wow, I, I think I sound more patient when I use that curiosity question.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of like do you have to be patient to have the effective tool come out of you, or, using the effective tool, can it help you be more patient? I think it goes together.
Speaker 1:Both ways. Yeah, yeah, it could be both. But I know that for me, when I'm really upset, of course you know we have the, the tool cards for marriage and for classroom and but whatever if I'm, if I just go to these, it'll be a reminder. It's just a way of almost a meditation to just help me calm down. Oh yeah, I could try that. But also really being kind to ourselves about you know, you do have stress, you do have anxiety, and don't beat up on yourself. In addition to that, say, yeah, I'm glad I've got some tools to help. It's not going to necessarily take it away, but it might help.
Speaker 2:So can I ask another follow-up question? I know you touched on this a bit when we talked about kids seeming entitled and us coddling them or allowing them to get whatever they want. Is this one of the top challenges you see in parenting right now, or allowing them to get whatever they want? Is this one of the top challenges you see in parenting right now? What have you seen shift since your first book, published in 1981, to what you see in parenting right now?
Speaker 1:I really see too much of a shift away from firmness to just kindness in the sense of pampering, firmness to just uh, kindness in the sense of pampering and um I, I did not even, you know, even when we had to live in housekeeper because I was traveling so much, her instructions were not to do everything for the kids but to make sure they did their their chores, that they still had the family meetings. She always came to our family meetings. So I just think that this I don't know what I would have done without the family meetings. To you know, tell me your question again. I think I got off track from your question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just that you know. I think there's a lot of entitlement and that parents I was just wondering what trends you see really from parenting when you wrote your book in 1981 to now and maybe related to that. How are parents contributing to the things that they find so challenging?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, you know, for one thing I'll tell you this when I was growing up, we were very poor, but I didn't know it because everybody was, and I think there is a lot of too much pressure too much. And you know. The other thing is my parents never knew anything with my homework. My teachers never went to my parents and this idea that you can look up and see what your grades are, there's just too much getting into kids' business instead of just letting them work it out with their teachers. I just think that that's too bad. They have put the responsibility. My mother used to once in a while say you can do better if you tried, and I probably could have, but that's all.
Speaker 2:And she wasn't calling your teacher for you and getting onto the computer and tracking every assignment you hadn't completed yet, or telling me you better do your homework first.
Speaker 1:She never told me when. To do my homework was none of her business. She didn't do it, she didn't take it. So there's just there's. There's a lot going on, yeah, to deal with. So that's all. Again, though. Again all the more reason why we need more tools.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Okay. A small tool question. A parent asked what's your take on telling someone that they're you know a certain behavior would be for them to be a good, a big boy. Boy, that seems like you're such a big boy to be doing that. Does that fall?
Speaker 1:within like it. Yeah well, I don't like that for a lot of reasons, uh, but one thing it lets me know I'm not good enough. Rather than saying I would rather say you know, I'll bet you can figure that out. You're so good at solving problems, or why don't you put that on the agenda and we can all brainstorm for solutions? But just telling them you're a big boy, what does that mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much. I just think I just really appreciate all of your wisdom and this thought about kindness and firmness. I completely agree with you. I think we're in this pendulum swift from shift from the early 70s 80s that was more very firm to you know, I've heard some, I think you describe it we used to have powerful adults and powerless children, but in some ways now we have powerful children and powerless adults, exactly Wow, and that that I really. This is why I think your wisdom is a classic, not out of date, because you have stuck to those. How do we be kind and firm at the same time? We cannot, we don't want to be in either end of that spectrum and I think that our culture and our families are really just needing your wisdom of this middle place to be kind and firm at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yes, but one thing I really don't want to put pressure on parents is okay, now you should be perfect, because this is not about being perfect. This is about how. What do I do? And then I can. You know, our book that's kind of old now is called Positive Discipline A to Z.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that every challenge you can think about. Now, it doesn't have, uh, technology, yeah, it doesn't have that, which is oh. But you know that on online we have a book uh, it's just a e-book called help. My child is addicted to screens. Yikes, so am I. Oh, love it. And that does include some uh, positive tools for dealing with screens. Uh, they're still addictive, though. I've got to admit that they're addictive, yes, and I don't think a lot of people have admitted that yet. Because they're, because adults are addicted, so yes, it's so true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we can go to that a to z book or to the. I'll make sure there's links to the, to the website for purchasing those.
Speaker 1:Or to the Help. I'm Addicted to Screens, but, laura, I also think people really need coaches like you. I bet that people are just finding so much relief they need see, because this is the other thing. We used to live close to parents, grandparents, and now so many people live in isolation and they don't even want to admit that they're having a challenge. Yeah, so the idea of being able to have a coach is just such a gift, so I'm glad you're out there doing that.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Yes, and all. I can include a link there that people can look for positive discipline coaches that might be in your area offering workshops, and I'll give a link there that people can look for positive discipline coaches that might be in your area offering workshops, and I'll give a link to my resource if you want to connect with the work that I do with virtual coaching. Well, thank you so much for your time, jane. It's been incredible to get to visit with you and I so appreciate your wealth of wisdom.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, and thank you for all you're doing your wealth of wisdom.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, and thank you for all you're doing. Thanks. Before we sign off, I just want to make sure. Did I say your intro okay, or would you like me to redo that so I can make sure that?
Speaker 1:I say it correctly Go ahead. I don't know what you did wrong. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I had said you were a mother of seven and then I think I, where I was reading it, said that your material was in 70 countries, but you said 80 later on. So I want to make sure I say it correctly.
Speaker 1:Yeah well what. What that means is that we've had actually people in over 90 countries now who have taken the training. Yes, even if it's the online training to become a parent facilitator.
Speaker 2:I love it. Well, I'll just say quickly well, welcome to the positive discipline podcast, or welcome to the sustainable parenting podcast, with me, flora McCormick, and today, my special guest, jane Nelson, who is the author of positive discipline series and co-founder of a worldwide training program that through the Positive Discipline Association, which is now in over 90 countries around the world. And I have been following you since I found you in 2009, and have admired and learned so much from you since then and have admired and learned so much from you since then.
Speaker 1:And can I also say that my website is positivismcom, but the association is positivismorg and they have so much material also about where the classes are. And we're having our Positivism Conference in Atlanta July 12th and so that's open to the public, anybody who wants to come, if they live in that area, and of course then we do our think tank for all our trainers to come and practice our new skills.
Speaker 2:Wonderful, yes, and I can say I've gone through many different trainings on how to you know learning theories around parenting and child development, and yours is so unique in terms of all of the experiential activities and the way that you teach through looking out the eyes of a child standing in the shoes of a child. It's just so different, Jane, and I really appreciate you of a child.
Speaker 1:It's just so different, jane, and I really appreciate you, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that's the part of the role playing. Is the parents get to role play what it's like to be the child and notice what they're thinking, feeling and deciding, and so they can then translate that and learn the more encouraging ways? So it's nice to thank you for sharing it with so many people.
Speaker 2:Yes, All right, jane. Well, we'll sign it off there. I'm so honored with for your time, really sincerely, and you know, ever since, did we get to all the questions that you had? I think that we did. I, um, I'm trying to think if there was anything else. Um, I I feel like you answered. I was going to ask what advice do you have for parents who have a harder time remaining calm or a harder time remaining firm? Oh, but I think you answered it. The tools. It's all about all of these tools. That's what helps you, right, and have the courage to be imperfect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, combining those two together Learn, be willing to learn. It's interesting. Combining those two together, learn, be willing to learn, it's interesting. I was just reading a book about how to help children who are explosive, and it was that same thought of how do we hold, at the same time, this belief that they're doing the best that they can and pairing that with and we're we're asking them to keep growing and learning, and I think that's what we're doing with parents too.
Speaker 1:So whatever happened to the cookbook?
Speaker 2:Well, you and I were looking at the children's book, I know. So how come we never did it? I know bugs and wishes. Well, as I remember, we just got turned down by the publishers and so it never progressed, but that was so long ago because it was.
Speaker 1:We've just self published the ones that we've done and we're working on some others, but yes, well, I did want to ask you.
Speaker 2:I saw I love what you do and the conference that I just recently attended with Laura Ferguson her showing how she uses the tools in in therapy made me wonder if you guys have something in the works related to how to coach these people that are learning your wonderful materials on how to make a successful business around it.
Speaker 1:We're doing it. What we're doing is we're creating a positive discipline for therapists that really shows how to use all these, because you know, when I was in my office, that's all I did was positive discipline yes, uh, one-on-one. The. The tools work even.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know we do, we practice them in big groups but they, they work one-on-one with a client so well, and I think that I don't know if you've seen this in your area or in people who you're talking to, but I think there's also a big movement of counselors leaving the therapeutic, like insurance model to doing more coaching. You know group coaching models and things that are online. There's so many different ways now to serve families than we used to have, and so that's been fun for me. I've connected with a few more people who are doing that also. Like, what does it look like to create a group coaching model online and then have parents go through it with your wonderful mother? What?
Speaker 1:was it that Laura? What did Laura do? What was the workshop she did, that you did with her?
Speaker 2:She did the one on. It wasn't anxiety, it was the one on um. It wasn't anxiety, it was oh, on on on using it in in therapy, for oh are you?
Speaker 1:are you talking about the one that was online through the pda? Yes, that, yes, right. So right after that I called her and said, okay, this has to be a book and we're doing it with, with her, her and uh kelly prepare. Yeah, now we're working on that because I I think, uh, at least, therapists will love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:I think there's so many people who want to use your material in their therapy practices or coaching practices, so that's awesome and did you know that we also now have a course, online course that people can buy for keeping the joy in relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, I just saw that, which I love that you highlighted that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Mary, mary and Fernanda, and I just created that, so okay, you're amazing, jane.
Speaker 2:Thank you for all the amazing work you do and I look forward to seeing you on more workshops I'm going to attend. Okay, great, all right.
Speaker 1:Bye.